BSR_S08E01 - The Pecking Order - Paperdoll Ensemble
Today on the podcast, Amanda Jensen, Co-Founder of Paperdoll Ensemble, drops in to talk about the 2023 FringeArts offering, The Pecking Order, a 70s-inspired tragicomedy highlighting the absurdity of women’s rights being thrust back in time. Here is my interview with Paperdoll Ensemble for The Pecking Order.
September 21 – October 1, 2023
PAPER DOLL ENSEMBLE creates devised absurdist tragicomedies that redefine traditional stories of feminine experiences.
THE PECKING ORDER is born out of grief and disbelief after the 2022 decision to overturn Roe v. Wade, and inspired by the wife and daughters of the supreme court judge who penned the original opinion, Justice Harry Blackmun. This 70s-inspired tragicomedy highlights the absurdity of women’s rights being thrust back in time in typically unpredictable Paper Dolls fashion, and asks provocative questions about unplanned pregnancy, family dynamics, and women’s rights.
Links:
https://paperdollensemble.com/
https://www.patreon.com/ThePaperDollEnsemble
https://phillyfringe.org/events/the-pecking-order/
Recommended:
https://phillyfringe.org/events/citrus-andronicus/
https://phillyfringe.org/events/vile/
https://phillyfringe.org/events/she-was-a-conquistawhore/
TRANSCRIPT:
Darnelle Radford:
And welcome to the podcast. I'm your host, Darnell Radford, and today I'm in the virtual studio with Paper Doll Ensemble, whose production, The Peking Order, will be on stage September 21st through October 1st. And I'm here with co-founder Amanda Jensen. Amanda, welcome to the podcast.
Amanda:
Hi, thanks for having me.
Darnelle Radford:
So I know you, Amanda, through many... with various capacities, but please tell our audience a little bit about you.
Amanda:
Yeah, so I've been in Philadelphia for, oh my goodness, over 10 years now, and I started kind of as an electrician and a production manager, but in the past, like eight years, I've just been doing lighting design. So I'm pretty solidly a lighting designer in the Philadelphia area.
Darnelle Radford:
Cool. And how did you become part of Paper Doll Ensemble? How did you and everyone else get together
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
and form Paper Doll Ensemble?
Amanda:
So I applied for a artist residency with, oh my God, I can't believe I can't remember their names. It'll come to me as I talk about it. I applied for this artist residency with an all female company that Carly Boldner had founded. So I remember Carly. I love Carly. And I got paired up with Sarah Van Ness, who is now our co our co founder, Sarah Clackliata. She actually got married like two weeks before we had to put a show together, back in like 2000, I think, 17. So we got paired up and we were given a little budget and time and space in the Skinner Studio at Plays and Players. And then material, and the material
Darnelle Radford:
The
Amanda:
was
Darnelle Radford:
material was
Amanda:
Snow White
Darnelle Radford:
Snow
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
White
Amanda:
Rose
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
Red,
Darnelle Radford:
Rose Red,
Amanda:
which
Darnelle Radford:
which
Amanda:
is
Darnelle Radford:
is
Amanda:
a grimmest
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
fairy tale. It's not Snow White
Darnelle Radford:
grimmish
Amanda:
and the Seven
Darnelle Radford:
fairy
Amanda:
Dwarves.
Darnelle Radford:
tale. It's not Snow White and the
Amanda:
Snow
Darnelle Radford:
Seven
Amanda:
White
Darnelle Radford:
Dwarves.
Amanda:
and Red.
Darnelle Radford:
Snow
Amanda:
It's
Darnelle Radford:
White
Amanda:
two
Darnelle Radford:
and Red
Amanda:
sisters,
Darnelle Radford:
and Rose are
Amanda:
they're
Darnelle Radford:
two
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
sisters.
Amanda:
out in the woods,
Darnelle Radford:
They're like
Amanda:
they
Darnelle Radford:
out
Amanda:
meet
Darnelle Radford:
in the
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
woods.
Amanda:
bear,
Darnelle Radford:
They
Amanda:
it's
Darnelle Radford:
need
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
magical
Darnelle Radford:
bear. It's
Amanda:
bear.
Darnelle Radford:
a magical bear.
Amanda:
And we
Darnelle Radford:
And we
Amanda:
brought on two
Darnelle Radford:
brought
Amanda:
more
Darnelle Radford:
on
Amanda:
artists,
Darnelle Radford:
two more artists,
Amanda:
Gracie
Darnelle Radford:
Gracie
Amanda:
Hoffman,
Darnelle Radford:
Hoffman,
Amanda:
who's now
Darnelle Radford:
who's
Amanda:
Gracie
Darnelle Radford:
now Gracie
Amanda:
Carson,
Darnelle Radford:
Carson,
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
another
Darnelle Radford:
another
Amanda:
artist
Darnelle Radford:
artist
Amanda:
who's
Darnelle Radford:
who's
Amanda:
now in
Darnelle Radford:
now
Amanda:
New York,
Darnelle Radford:
in New York,
Amanda:
Juliet
Darnelle Radford:
Juliet
Amanda:
Govind.
Darnelle Radford:
Kroban.
Amanda:
And
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
we created
Darnelle Radford:
we created
Amanda:
this like
Darnelle Radford:
this
Amanda:
very
Darnelle Radford:
very
Amanda:
weird
Darnelle Radford:
weird
Amanda:
surrealist
Darnelle Radford:
surrealist
Amanda:
piece
Darnelle Radford:
piece
Amanda:
that like
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
felt
Darnelle Radford:
felt
Amanda:
like unnerving.
Darnelle Radford:
unnerving.
Amanda:
And it was in response to like all these different versions of this... fairy tale we were reading and how they were all like very much about like and then the girls took care of the bear and the bear turned into a prince and he married Snow White but don't worry he had a brother for Rose Red so then they all got married and after we finished that residency we just enjoyed working together so much that we decided we wanted to finish that piece because it was only like 30 minutes long And we took like
Darnelle Radford:
took
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
year
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
year
Amanda:
a half
Darnelle Radford:
and a half
Amanda:
to develop
Darnelle Radford:
to develop
Amanda:
that
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
into
Darnelle Radford:
into
Amanda:
our first
Darnelle Radford:
our first
Amanda:
full production,
Darnelle Radford:
full production,
Amanda:
which was called
Darnelle Radford:
called
Amanda:
This Is How
Darnelle Radford:
This
Amanda:
Girls
Darnelle Radford:
Is How
Amanda:
Die,
Darnelle Radford:
Girls Die,
Amanda:
which ended
Darnelle Radford:
which
Amanda:
up
Darnelle Radford:
ended
Amanda:
being
Darnelle Radford:
up
Amanda:
about
Darnelle Radford:
being about
Amanda:
three
Darnelle Radford:
three
Amanda:
sisters
Darnelle Radford:
sisters
Amanda:
trapped
Darnelle Radford:
trapped
Amanda:
in a cabin
Darnelle Radford:
in a cabin
Amanda:
because
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
they wouldn't
Darnelle Radford:
they
Amanda:
go
Darnelle Radford:
didn't
Amanda:
outside
Darnelle Radford:
go outside
Amanda:
because
Darnelle Radford:
because
Amanda:
their mom
Darnelle Radford:
their mom
Amanda:
was killed
Darnelle Radford:
was
Amanda:
by
Darnelle Radford:
killed
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
by
Amanda:
bear.
Darnelle Radford:
a bear.
Amanda:
The bear
Darnelle Radford:
Bear
Amanda:
was a
Darnelle Radford:
was
Amanda:
man.
Darnelle Radford:
a man. Oh, you find out again.
Amanda:
You find out at the end. And after that show, we were
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
just
Darnelle Radford:
were
Amanda:
like,
Darnelle Radford:
just like,
Amanda:
look,
Darnelle Radford:
look,
Amanda:
this
Darnelle Radford:
this
Amanda:
is
Darnelle Radford:
is,
Amanda:
we really
Darnelle Radford:
we really
Amanda:
love this.
Darnelle Radford:
love
Amanda:
We
Darnelle Radford:
this.
Amanda:
love
Darnelle Radford:
We
Amanda:
working
Darnelle Radford:
love working
Amanda:
together.
Darnelle Radford:
together.
Amanda:
We love.
Darnelle Radford:
We love
Amanda:
creating
Darnelle Radford:
creating
Amanda:
pieces
Darnelle Radford:
pieces
Amanda:
and devising.
Darnelle Radford:
and devising.
Amanda:
And
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
so we
Darnelle Radford:
so
Amanda:
just
Darnelle Radford:
we just
Amanda:
decided
Darnelle Radford:
decided
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
like,
Amanda:
literally
Darnelle Radford:
literally
Amanda:
like a
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
week
Darnelle Radford:
a week
Amanda:
after
Darnelle Radford:
after
Amanda:
we had
Darnelle Radford:
we had
Amanda:
finished
Darnelle Radford:
finished
Amanda:
this production
Darnelle Radford:
this production.
Amanda:
to start a company and we called it Paper Doll Ensemble and here we are now. And we've done like
Darnelle Radford:
We've
Amanda:
two
Darnelle Radford:
done
Amanda:
full
Darnelle Radford:
two
Amanda:
productions.
Darnelle Radford:
full productions.
Amanda:
We like
Darnelle Radford:
We
Amanda:
snuck in
Darnelle Radford:
snuck
Amanda:
our second
Darnelle Radford:
in our second
Amanda:
production
Darnelle Radford:
production
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
literally
Darnelle Radford:
literally
Amanda:
four weeks
Darnelle Radford:
four
Amanda:
before
Darnelle Radford:
weeks
Amanda:
the
Darnelle Radford:
before
Amanda:
pandemic
Darnelle Radford:
the pandemic
Amanda:
shut everything
Darnelle Radford:
shut everything
Amanda:
down.
Darnelle Radford:
down.
Amanda:
And then we
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
did
Darnelle Radford:
then
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
virtual
Darnelle Radford:
did a first
Amanda:
production
Darnelle Radford:
full production.
Amanda:
in 2021 for virtual. a virtual fringe about witches and witchcraft. And so
Darnelle Radford:
So
Amanda:
we're back,
Darnelle Radford:
we're back,
Amanda:
we're back
Darnelle Radford:
we're back
Amanda:
doing
Darnelle Radford:
doing
Amanda:
an in-person
Darnelle Radford:
it in person
Amanda:
full production,
Darnelle Radford:
for prevention,
Amanda:
which is like
Darnelle Radford:
which is like
Amanda:
super exciting
Darnelle Radford:
super exciting
Amanda:
for us
Darnelle Radford:
for
Amanda:
because
Darnelle Radford:
us because
Amanda:
I felt
Darnelle Radford:
I felt
Amanda:
like we
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
loved
Darnelle Radford:
we love
Amanda:
working
Darnelle Radford:
working
Amanda:
on that virtual
Darnelle Radford:
on that virtual
Amanda:
piece,
Darnelle Radford:
piece,
Amanda:
but
Darnelle Radford:
but
Amanda:
there's just
Darnelle Radford:
there's
Amanda:
something
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
really
Darnelle Radford:
something
Amanda:
magical
Darnelle Radford:
really magical
Amanda:
about
Darnelle Radford:
all
Amanda:
being
Darnelle Radford:
being
Amanda:
in
Darnelle Radford:
in
Amanda:
the
Darnelle Radford:
front
Amanda:
room
Darnelle Radford:
of us
Amanda:
together
Darnelle Radford:
together.
Amanda:
in person that we were really missing.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah, cool. So why Paper Doll? Paper Doll? Yeah. So, wait, you know what?
Amanda:
Paper Doll. It's so funny. I, you know what? I don't remember why that came to us
Darnelle Radford:
to
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
us
Amanda:
it was
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
such
Darnelle Radford:
it was
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
such
Amanda:
good
Darnelle Radford:
a good
Amanda:
name.
Darnelle Radford:
name.
Amanda:
I think
Darnelle Radford:
I
Amanda:
we
Darnelle Radford:
think
Amanda:
were like
Darnelle Radford:
we were like
Amanda:
spit
Darnelle Radford:
spitballing.
Amanda:
balling. We were sitting
Darnelle Radford:
We were
Amanda:
in
Darnelle Radford:
sitting
Amanda:
Rittenhouse
Darnelle Radford:
in Rittenhouse
Amanda:
Park, that
Darnelle Radford:
Park,
Amanda:
I
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
remember.
Darnelle Radford:
I remember.
Amanda:
And we
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
knew
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
we
Darnelle Radford:
knew
Amanda:
were going to be
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
doing
Darnelle Radford:
were going to be doing...
Amanda:
This Is How Girls Die at Plays and Players as a co-production. And we're
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
like,
Darnelle Radford:
we're like,
Amanda:
oh, it's
Darnelle Radford:
oh,
Amanda:
just
Darnelle Radford:
it's
Amanda:
going to
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
be
Darnelle Radford:
going
Amanda:
silly
Darnelle Radford:
to be silly
Amanda:
if it's just
Darnelle Radford:
if it's
Amanda:
our
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
names.
Darnelle Radford:
our names.
Amanda:
Like we should
Darnelle Radford:
Like, we
Amanda:
have
Darnelle Radford:
should
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
have
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
company
Darnelle Radford:
company
Amanda:
name, at least
Darnelle Radford:
name,
Amanda:
something
Darnelle Radford:
at least something
Amanda:
that's like
Darnelle Radford:
that's, like,
Amanda:
not
Darnelle Radford:
not
Amanda:
Amanda
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
Jensen,
Darnelle Radford:
Vintages,
Amanda:
Gracie Hoffman and Sarah
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
Quagliata.
Darnelle Radford:
Sarah Flagliata.
Amanda:
And so
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
we just started
Darnelle Radford:
so we just
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
started,
Amanda:
riffing
Darnelle Radford:
like, riffing
Amanda:
on like
Darnelle Radford:
on,
Amanda:
dolls
Darnelle Radford:
like, dolls.
Amanda:
and like because Something that we really enjoy working with this is the idea of like femininity and what that means and then what lies beneath so like we started brushing on dolls like what is that and Someone was like paper doll
Darnelle Radford:
paper
Amanda:
and I was
Darnelle Radford:
doll
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
really paper dolls. I'm a paper dolls
Darnelle Radford:
I
Amanda:
apple.
Darnelle Radford:
was
Amanda:
That's it I was like check
Darnelle Radford:
like,
Amanda:
it and we checked
Darnelle Radford:
paper
Amanda:
like every social
Darnelle Radford:
doll
Amanda:
media like platform
Darnelle Radford:
ensemble,
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
paper
Amanda:
no one had
Darnelle Radford:
doll
Amanda:
it and we're like
Darnelle Radford:
ensemble, that's it. I was like, check it. We checked every social media
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
platform and no one had it and we're like, take it. That's great. And actually, sometimes that is the way it's like, wait, does anybody own it? Okay, we'll take it.
Amanda:
Yeah, and that's like it. We were like, we loved it so much sitting there on the bench. We were just like, that feels so right for
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
us. And then I was like, we gotta check. We gotta check. So Gracie pulls out her phone and she's like, it's not on Instagram, it's not on Twitter. Yeah, so then that was it. It was like the right, it was like the sign of like, this is it.
Darnelle Radford:
Cool. I love when it's like, when the organic process just flows. It's not, we slaved over this for months on end and then one day I woke up from a bad dream and here it was.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah, cool. So, I, if, from what I gather from past shows, there's always been some sort of, there's been a theme that has inspired all the pieces.
Amanda:
Yeah,
Darnelle Radford:
And talk,
Amanda:
that's true.
Darnelle Radford:
talk about how that became sort of the calling card of Paper Doll.
Amanda:
So we really, we actually, it's so funny you say that because we have in our like Google folder, our share folder for the company, another folder that says show ideas and it's just folders of ideas with research of them. Like one of the things we have in there is like female jockeys. Don't
Darnelle Radford:
Hehehe
Amanda:
know, we like read an article, thought it was cool, put it in there, that might be a show one day. We don't
Darnelle Radford:
We'll figure
Amanda:
like,
Darnelle Radford:
it out later.
Amanda:
we'll figure it out. Like it kind of comes down to like, what's going on in society and what like, like tickles us, like we're like, oh, that's so good. Like, let's learn more about that. And that's kind of, what's interesting about this piece currently is that this is not where we started. We started in a completely different place than where we've ended up. And I think that's like kind of the interesting part of like the birth of this piece, but that's how we kind of pick our topics. We like go through our folders and like have me, like Gracie Sarah and I sit down and talk about like, what is going on right now that is relevant to us. that we're hearing stories about or that we really wanna explore or dig into. And that's our second show was like, what do we wanna explore and dig into? And it was The Bachelor.
Darnelle Radford:
Mm. Ha ha ha.
Amanda:
And that was mostly because, you know, it's such a cultural phenomenon, this show. And when we started researching it, it's like really weird and messed up when you like know how they produce it and like how the women are portrayed and how they use like, editing to make certain characters in the show. I use characters loosely in the show. They edited one woman to sound completely crazy on the season we all watched together,
Darnelle Radford:
Hmm.
Amanda:
and she was a perfectly normal person.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And then this idea that the women are all sleep deprived and they don't have any outside contact, and that's two tactics of cults. So we went down that rabbit hole and we created a show.
Darnelle Radford:
Wow. I, so I, when you said the bachelor, I was thinking about there's a commercial that is sort of parodying the bachelorette. And she's, she says something like, she's like, she's like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Frankie D. I had a really good time with you, but I'm gonna choose Frankie Z. And it's like everybody's kind of the same. And it's like, so, you know, the way they cast, they cast basically the same people.
Amanda:
Yeah,
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
those
Darnelle Radford:
you're
Amanda:
archetypes.
Darnelle Radford:
like, I don't know what to choose. And it's
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
ridiculous. Yeah.
Amanda:
Yeah, and that was our thing with that show. We were like really like, who are these? We were seeing the women in that show, not on camera. Cause we kept having this like, this discussion of like, do you think they act like, or you know, anyone, do you act differently when you're public facing versus when you're private facing? And so that like became one of the things we kept digging into is like, who are these women when they're not on camera and not being watched?
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah, I love that because I have many ideas that go behind the scenes of things because we're working so hard to clean everything up and polish it and present it in such a way. And it's like, yeah, but I want to know the behind the scenes things like, you know, in everything, like, for example, I'll watch, you know, like a spy drama or something. And I'm like, who runs the HR department? You know? Like,
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
how do they get paid? What happens if somebody
Amanda:
Who's
Darnelle Radford:
dies?
Amanda:
in charge?
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah, like.
Amanda:
Who made those code words up? That's what I want to know. Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah
Amanda:
It's interesting. Cause like that kind of that motif is actually woven itself through a lot of our work. Like what is lying underneath the surface or like what is, uh, the what's behind that public mask.
Darnelle Radford:
Hmm.
Amanda:
So, um, this is how girls die was like had that happening in it. And this show, definitely. has an element of that in it as well.
Darnelle Radford:
Okay.
Amanda:
Okay.
Darnelle Radford:
So now we come to the pecking order.
Amanda:
hacking rid of.
Darnelle Radford:
First
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
off, in your Google Drive folder, where you have all your ideas, was this idea in there and was it called the pecking order?
Amanda:
It was not in our folder at all.
Darnelle Radford:
Oh wow,
Amanda:
No,
Darnelle Radford:
okay.
Amanda:
this was, like I said, we started in a very different place with this show.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
We actually started with just Sarah, Gracie and I like coming out of like, we can be back together then, we've all been vaccinated, like all of that. Being like, we just wanna do something like what we did early, early on when we did like, this is how girls die. Like, let's just start with the three of us. And so we were actually looking at debutante culture and like, what that is and how you move through that society, very public facing. And we were working on it when all of those, when it got leaked, when that paper got leaked, and we're like, oh no, do we need to make a show about losing abortion rights? And we're like, no, we don't know. And Lightning Rod Special's already done one. Why should, let's just. focus on this show and like, it's gonna be fine.
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
And then June happened and we were like, oh no, we're not making this show anymore about debutantes. We're making a short show about abortion rights. Like it completely changed our trajectory. We actually put aside the show we were working on and started over because we were also angry and upset and like hurt and. I guess, and I'm always being theater artists, we're like, what better way to process this and like show the devastation of this decision than to make a piece of art? We always say that we wanted it to be just standing on stage, yelling at the audience, like, abortion is healthcare! But we're like, but no one will come and see that show or stay at that show, so let's make something that says that without yelling it.
Darnelle Radford:
Hmm.
Amanda:
And then
Darnelle Radford:
Okay.
Amanda:
that's how we started. Another piece of that puzzle is we decided like, okay, we're switching gears. We're gonna make a show about access to abortions and healthcare rights and women's rights. And we brought in two more collaborators, people we've collaborated before, Simha Toledano and Marsha Ferguson and serving on this piece. And... What happened was Sarah listened to this amazing podcast that she sent to all of us and I do not remember it. I can text her and find out, but they talk about Justice Blackmon who wrote the decision for Roe versus Wade. And through it, this podcast, we learned that he had three daughters who all kind of had different ideas about abortion and abortion rights and what he should do or shouldn't do. And we started researching this family because it was so fascinating. and found this like amazing story of these, you know, his wife and his three daughters, these like amazing women, like amazing women, and his decision, and it like really propelled us forward. And so what we found in that is like all the characters and this idea of like, what happens, again, what happens public facing and what happens private facing? Because through our research, we found out that his middle daughter, before he wrote the decision, got pregnant in college and had to drop out and marry her boyfriend
Darnelle Radford:
Wow.
Amanda:
and stop her education because she got pregnant. And so we took that and we moved it a little forward in the timeline. It happened in the late 60s, but we moved it up to the 70s. and started building a show off her coming home to pretty much tell everyone, you know, that she was gonna have to quit school.
Darnelle Radford:
Wow. I love how ideas and resources and references become story. So thank you for breaking that down.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
And so what do you think? So when it comes to seeing a piece of art,
Amanda:
Mm-hmm.
Darnelle Radford:
I know how it sounds when I ask this question, because I know you just come in with a blank slate and you just sort of process what is
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
there, but like, what do you think, what should we know about the political infringements on women's rights right now?
Amanda:
Oh my
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
goodness.
Darnelle Radford:
is it required? Is it required to experience the pecking order?
Amanda:
I think the only thing you need to know, coming to see the pecking order, the only thing you need to know about what is currently happening, and there is a lot happening, and it's all scary, but the only thing you need to know is that we are being thrust back in time. We are being, rights that we have had for, what is it, like 50 years, rights of privacy, rights of bodily autonomy are being ripped away from us, and we are being sent back. to pre 1973. My mom had more rights than I do right now. So that is the only thing you need to know and come with an open mind and just watch this story.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah. And so I'm sure you've had this conversation as you were letting this piece become what it's meant to be.
Amanda:
Mm-hmm.
Darnelle Radford:
What do you think the reason is behind all this?
Amanda:
The reason behind the,
Darnelle Radford:
all this and all this infringement
Amanda:
I think,
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
well,
Darnelle Radford:
us going back in time.
Amanda:
patriarchy, that's the simple answer, but really what it is this weird, like, inner mingling of church and state that's not supposed to happen, and a small majority having a lot more power than they should, because, you know, I don't know the numbers, and I'm not gonna try to quote anything, I feel, and from what I read and what I know, that a lot of people are in support of women being able to choose what they want to do with their bodies. And I think the problem is that we are trying to, what's the word I'm looking for? We are trying to legislate what I can and can't do with my body because I just happen to have a uterus. Like nothing like this is going through any courts or any government in our country when it comes to like limiting a man's right or access to something that they need or don't need. But the example that I always like get on my high horse about and I'm happy to get on my high horse about
Darnelle Radford:
Hehehe
Amanda:
is like, you can get Viacra, you can like, it's covered by your health insurance, but
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
you can't. go to the hospital because you're having a miscarriage and get an abortion, even though it's life threatening.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And that to me really just shows such a disconnect in our society that one is okay and fine, but and like, I don't know, like that seems like something that if you want that, sure, fine, great. But the other one, like being able, if you're having a miscarriage to go to a hospital and get healthcare seems pretty damn important. erectile dysfunction.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah, yeah. And they're so precious about erectile dysfunction that you can just answer a questionnaire without really talking to anybody.
Amanda:
Yeah, you can get like ED meds over like an app now.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
So, I
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
mean
Darnelle Radford:
it seems
Amanda:
that.
Darnelle Radford:
like everybody has them. It's crazy. And it's been scams for years. You would always see emails that are like, real hard, strong man. Like, what?
Amanda:
And like, that's, and to think about that, like that's also part of the patriarchy and like that
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
is also like really unhealthy and damaging to men as well. Like no one, this isn't good for anyone, but immediately right now, the problem is women can't get the healthcare they need. That to me is like a really big problem and like something that needs to be, you know, discussed and addressed and really like. seen in this moment as a problem.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah. So I always believe that marginalization comes from fear.
Amanda:
Yes.
Darnelle Radford:
What do you think they are afraid of?
Amanda:
that women can make their own decisions. I'm not 100% sure all the time. I'm not sure what the fear necessarily comes from or is, but I do think it is a fear of like, this sounds so like, I'm not trying to be judgmental, but it is kind of like this fear of like, well, you'll go to hell. Or this fear of, well, if you can make your own decisions. like, are you gonna make a bad decision for yourself? And like, that's still like, that's still my decision to make whether, and my decision to make whether it's good or bad for myself is my decision. Like, so I think that's what a lot of it comes from. It comes from this fear of also just not knowing and not being able to listen and like lacking empathy in
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
the moment too. I think because of the fear. It's really hard for people to hear other people's stories with just like,
Darnelle Radford:
stories,
Amanda:
just to
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
hear the
Darnelle Radford:
to
Amanda:
story
Darnelle Radford:
hear the story,
Amanda:
or just
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
to hear where
Darnelle Radford:
to
Amanda:
they're
Darnelle Radford:
hear where
Amanda:
coming
Darnelle Radford:
they're coming
Amanda:
from.
Darnelle Radford:
from.
Amanda:
And I think
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
that
Darnelle Radford:
I
Amanda:
like,
Darnelle Radford:
think
Amanda:
that's
Darnelle Radford:
that's
Amanda:
something
Darnelle Radford:
something
Amanda:
that's
Darnelle Radford:
that's
Amanda:
really missing
Darnelle Radford:
really missing
Amanda:
in a lot
Darnelle Radford:
in a
Amanda:
of
Darnelle Radford:
lot of
Amanda:
this
Darnelle Radford:
this
Amanda:
like demonization
Darnelle Radford:
demonization.
Amanda:
of women who need this access and who want to, you know, have the choice.
Darnelle Radford:
You know what's interesting about it is that the thing the world does unconsciously effortlessly is evolve.
Amanda:
Yes.
Darnelle Radford:
We can watch a plant grow
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
and it just grows, you know, unless you stunt its growth, then why would you do that? Why would you plant? Why would you plant something if you didn't want it to grow and you don't have any real control over what it grows into? but you nurture it anyway.
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
And so it always seems crazy. Like I mainline the news, it's unfortunate. And I try to turn it off. And sometimes I feel like, well, you know, it's sort of my duty to be aware of these things. And, you know, I'm a part of an organization that needs to know what's going on in the news. And so I think about that. But it's often like, Why the mindset of picking and choosing what gets to evolve and
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
what doesn't? It's like you don't have a say. So why do you think you have a say?
Amanda:
Right, and there's like, yeah, exactly. And this idea too that like a lot of people who need access to this are people who are trying to actually do better for themselves.
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
Who are actually like, I can't have a child right now. I'm not financially stable. I don't like, maybe I don't have like good housing.
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
Like there's so many reasons that I think are overlooked in this argument other than, well, that's a life.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
And there's so many more things and nuances that go into this argument that I think are just
Darnelle Radford:
into
Amanda:
thrown to the wayside a lot of the time in the name of morality.
Darnelle Radford:
this argument and things are just thrown to the wayside a lot of the time in the name of Marco. So take us into the work in progress in December.
Amanda:
Yeah, it was.
Darnelle Radford:
Where were you at the, where was the piece at that point?
Amanda:
So we had about, I'm gonna say like 40 minutes of solid, like a solid skeleton of a script. We knew what the piece was about, we knew who the characters were, we kind of knew the point, we get from point A, B, and then C, and we were like, okay, let's put it in front of the audience, let's see if they get it, let's see if it works, let's see if there's questions that
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
come
Darnelle Radford:
come
Amanda:
up,
Darnelle Radford:
up
Amanda:
and if...
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
those
Darnelle Radford:
if
Amanda:
questions
Darnelle Radford:
those questions
Amanda:
need to be
Darnelle Radford:
need
Amanda:
answered
Darnelle Radford:
to be answered
Amanda:
or if we can
Darnelle Radford:
or
Amanda:
just
Darnelle Radford:
if
Amanda:
leave
Darnelle Radford:
we can
Amanda:
them
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
as
Darnelle Radford:
leave
Amanda:
questions.
Darnelle Radford:
them as questions.
Amanda:
And
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
so
Darnelle Radford:
so
Amanda:
we were
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
also
Darnelle Radford:
were also
Amanda:
very,
Darnelle Radford:
very,
Amanda:
we're
Darnelle Radford:
we're
Amanda:
overachievers.
Darnelle Radford:
overachievers.
Amanda:
So
Darnelle Radford:
So
Amanda:
it was
Darnelle Radford:
it was
Amanda:
a staged
Darnelle Radford:
a stage
Amanda:
reading
Darnelle Radford:
reading
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
everyone
Darnelle Radford:
everyone
Amanda:
still had scripts
Darnelle Radford:
still has
Amanda:
on their
Darnelle Radford:
Chris's
Amanda:
hands
Darnelle Radford:
hair,
Amanda:
and it's staged
Darnelle Radford:
but stage
Amanda:
reading
Darnelle Radford:
reading.
Amanda:
but we had costumes,
Darnelle Radford:
We had costumes,
Amanda:
we had props,
Darnelle Radford:
we had props,
Amanda:
there was like
Darnelle Radford:
it was like
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
little
Darnelle Radford:
little
Amanda:
table
Darnelle Radford:
table,
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
for the
Darnelle Radford:
from
Amanda:
set
Darnelle Radford:
the set,
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
we were
Darnelle Radford:
were
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
definitely
Darnelle Radford:
definitely
Amanda:
overachieving
Darnelle Radford:
overachieving
Amanda:
in that
Darnelle Radford:
in that
Amanda:
moment.
Darnelle Radford:
moment,
Amanda:
But it was
Darnelle Radford:
but
Amanda:
really
Darnelle Radford:
it was really
Amanda:
great for
Darnelle Radford:
great
Amanda:
us to
Darnelle Radford:
for
Amanda:
put
Darnelle Radford:
us to
Amanda:
it
Darnelle Radford:
put
Amanda:
on
Darnelle Radford:
them.
Amanda:
its feet and see. what else
Darnelle Radford:
and see
Amanda:
we
Darnelle Radford:
what
Amanda:
needed
Darnelle Radford:
else
Amanda:
to create.
Darnelle Radford:
we needed to create.
Amanda:
We knew
Darnelle Radford:
We
Amanda:
it
Darnelle Radford:
knew
Amanda:
wasn't
Darnelle Radford:
it
Amanda:
finished.
Darnelle Radford:
wasn't finished.
Amanda:
We knew
Darnelle Radford:
We
Amanda:
it
Darnelle Radford:
knew
Amanda:
needed
Darnelle Radford:
it needed
Amanda:
a little
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
bit
Darnelle Radford:
little
Amanda:
more.
Darnelle Radford:
bit
Amanda:
We
Darnelle Radford:
more.
Amanda:
knew
Darnelle Radford:
We
Amanda:
there
Darnelle Radford:
knew
Amanda:
were things
Darnelle Radford:
there were
Amanda:
we were
Darnelle Radford:
things
Amanda:
gonna
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
have
Darnelle Radford:
were gonna
Amanda:
to explain.
Darnelle Radford:
have to explain.
Amanda:
But once
Darnelle Radford:
But
Amanda:
you've
Darnelle Radford:
once you've
Amanda:
been in
Darnelle Radford:
been
Amanda:
the room
Darnelle Radford:
in the
Amanda:
for
Darnelle Radford:
room for
Amanda:
almost
Darnelle Radford:
almost
Amanda:
a year,
Darnelle Radford:
a year,
Amanda:
sometimes
Darnelle Radford:
sometimes
Amanda:
it's really
Darnelle Radford:
it's
Amanda:
hard
Darnelle Radford:
really
Amanda:
to
Darnelle Radford:
hard.
Amanda:
see what those things are. And having feedback from the audience and other artists who come and see our work and being able to talk to them was excellent. We kind of took everything in. And then came back like a, I think like a month or two later and like started
Darnelle Radford:
started
Amanda:
to workshop again and finish what we'd started.
Darnelle Radford:
to work out again and finish what we started. Yeah. How did the audience respond in December?
Amanda:
like really good, we had great responses. It was interesting,
Darnelle Radford:
It was interesting.
Amanda:
we had
Darnelle Radford:
We
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
had
Amanda:
lot
Darnelle Radford:
a lot
Amanda:
of,
Darnelle Radford:
of...
Amanda:
this is
Darnelle Radford:
this
Amanda:
no
Darnelle Radford:
is
Amanda:
shade
Darnelle Radford:
no shade
Amanda:
at all,
Darnelle Radford:
at all.
Amanda:
no shade, but we had a lot of older white men be very confused about well, what the time period was, because we didn't say back at the reading if it was 1972 or if it was 2022. We've actually, after talking to Paige Zubal, who like, comes and gives us
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
feedback
Darnelle Radford:
gives us feedback
Amanda:
during
Darnelle Radford:
during
Amanda:
the process,
Darnelle Radford:
the process,
Amanda:
we decided
Darnelle Radford:
we decided
Amanda:
to solidly
Darnelle Radford:
to solidly
Amanda:
set it
Darnelle Radford:
set
Amanda:
in
Darnelle Radford:
it
Amanda:
the 70s.
Darnelle Radford:
in the seven days.
Amanda:
But
Darnelle Radford:
But
Amanda:
yeah, we
Darnelle Radford:
yeah,
Amanda:
took
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
it
Darnelle Radford:
took
Amanda:
all
Darnelle Radford:
it
Amanda:
in,
Darnelle Radford:
all in,
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
we
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
took
Darnelle Radford:
took
Amanda:
the things
Darnelle Radford:
the
Amanda:
that
Darnelle Radford:
things
Amanda:
we
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
needed
Darnelle Radford:
we needed
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
used those,
Darnelle Radford:
used those,
Amanda:
and then some
Darnelle Radford:
and then
Amanda:
of the
Darnelle Radford:
some
Amanda:
things
Darnelle Radford:
of the things
Amanda:
that were like,
Darnelle Radford:
that were like,
Amanda:
we're okay
Darnelle Radford:
we're okay
Amanda:
not answering
Darnelle Radford:
not answering
Amanda:
that question,
Darnelle Radford:
the question,
Amanda:
or
Darnelle Radford:
or
Amanda:
we're okay
Darnelle Radford:
we're okay
Amanda:
if you
Darnelle Radford:
if you
Amanda:
felt
Darnelle Radford:
felt
Amanda:
uncomfortable
Darnelle Radford:
uncomfortable
Amanda:
in this
Darnelle Radford:
in
Amanda:
section,
Darnelle Radford:
this section,
Amanda:
and just
Darnelle Radford:
and just like, we go
Amanda:
threw those away. Because I
Darnelle Radford:
away.
Amanda:
think there's
Darnelle Radford:
But I think
Amanda:
sometimes,
Darnelle Radford:
there's sometimes,
Amanda:
being a
Darnelle Radford:
being
Amanda:
little
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
bit
Darnelle Radford:
little
Amanda:
uncomfortable
Darnelle Radford:
bit uncomfortable isn't a-
Amanda:
Bad thing.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah. Yeah, honestly, being uncomfortable in theater is probably ideal. There's something there
Amanda:
something that you have to
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
think
Darnelle Radford:
you
Amanda:
about.
Darnelle Radford:
really
Amanda:
Yeah,
Darnelle Radford:
need
Amanda:
and
Darnelle Radford:
to process.
Amanda:
we had a lot of people come up afterwards and say, thank you for making this. We had a lot of people who absolutely loved the piece, where it was. And it just made it like, it was very affirming to us that we were on the right track and that we were heading in the right direction and we could take all this in and finish the piece. And so now it is probably gonna run about an hour, hour five. We like
Darnelle Radford:
We
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
nice,
Darnelle Radford:
a nice
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
app,
Amanda:
all
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
of our
Darnelle Radford:
all
Amanda:
pieces
Darnelle Radford:
of our pieces
Amanda:
have been like
Darnelle Radford:
have been like this
Amanda:
just maybe
Darnelle Radford:
just maybe
Amanda:
a hair
Darnelle Radford:
a year
Amanda:
over an
Darnelle Radford:
over
Amanda:
hour,
Darnelle Radford:
an hour.
Amanda:
no intermission.
Darnelle Radford:
No intermission,
Amanda:
We get in
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
there,
Darnelle Radford:
get in there,
Amanda:
we get
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
in,
Darnelle Radford:
get
Amanda:
we
Darnelle Radford:
in,
Amanda:
get out,
Darnelle Radford:
we get
Amanda:
we
Darnelle Radford:
out, we
Amanda:
do it.
Darnelle Radford:
do it.
Amanda:
We really took
Darnelle Radford:
really
Amanda:
the
Darnelle Radford:
took
Amanda:
time
Darnelle Radford:
the time
Amanda:
too to develop
Darnelle Radford:
to develop
Amanda:
all of the
Darnelle Radford:
all
Amanda:
sisters
Darnelle Radford:
of the sisters
Amanda:
and what they're
Darnelle Radford:
and what
Amanda:
going
Darnelle Radford:
they're going
Amanda:
through.
Darnelle Radford:
through.
Amanda:
And so there's
Darnelle Radford:
And so
Amanda:
some
Darnelle Radford:
there's some
Amanda:
added
Darnelle Radford:
added
Amanda:
depth
Darnelle Radford:
depth
Amanda:
to each
Darnelle Radford:
to
Amanda:
of the
Darnelle Radford:
each
Amanda:
characters
Darnelle Radford:
of the characters.
Amanda:
with the mother and then the oldest sister and the middle sister and the youngest sister. So they all kind of have their own. like baggage that they're dealing with at the same time that this is brought to the home. And now they're like, as a family, we have to deal with this. And what do we do? We've also
Darnelle Radford:
We've also
Amanda:
added,
Darnelle Radford:
added...
Amanda:
there's some extra pressure of like some of like publicity in the public, possibly finding out, which I think really actually helped the piece, the urgency of the piece. Cause this is something we would always been talking about, like why tonight, why this night, why this day, why right now? in this piece, because it's just over the course of like one night in with the family. And that helped answer a lot of that, like those questions. Oh, because time is running out and this whole like the Roe versus
Darnelle Radford:
Roe
Amanda:
Wade decision is coming out. And so all the eyes are on this family. And that's why.
Darnelle Radford:
versus Wade. Decision is coming out, so all the eyes are on this family and that's it. And that's a great box to put it in.
Amanda:
Yeah, it really
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
did up the stakes like so much and we when we when we figured out that's what it was it was like this like ah like light bulb big explosion we're like that's it yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
So when you're when you're putting when you're putting a piece together, do you find as an ensemble? Do you find that you have more information and that you have to sort of edit down or do you have a key thing, a key point you wanna get across and you have to build story around it?
Amanda:
There's two, those are great questions because there's two things to that. We always have what we call like our thesis statement or our short hand for it is our nugget. So it's like this little nugget where like, this is what we were trying to explain. But when we start, because we are so research-based at the beginning, like we just have folders of like, articles and podcasts and imagery that we have been just consuming for like two, three months that we then share with. if we bring in collaborators and we share that with them and get them consuming all that information. And then we just throw that all out the window, which sounds awful. We're just like, don't forget all of that. Let's throw some spaghetti at the wall and see what happens. So we throw a lot of spaghetti at the wall and then the stuff that's good, the stuff that sticks, the stuff that we really
Darnelle Radford:
that we really
Amanda:
like,
Darnelle Radford:
like,
Amanda:
we then
Darnelle Radford:
even
Amanda:
build
Darnelle Radford:
build
Amanda:
into
Darnelle Radford:
into like...
Amanda:
little pieces. And then
Darnelle Radford:
And then
Amanda:
usually
Darnelle Radford:
usually
Amanda:
from there,
Darnelle Radford:
from there,
Amanda:
a story
Darnelle Radford:
the story
Amanda:
starts
Darnelle Radford:
starts
Amanda:
to emerge
Darnelle Radford:
to emerge
Amanda:
for us
Darnelle Radford:
for
Amanda:
because
Darnelle Radford:
us because
Amanda:
we do
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
a lot
Darnelle Radford:
do
Amanda:
of
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
character
Darnelle Radford:
lot of character
Amanda:
work at the
Darnelle Radford:
work
Amanda:
beginning
Darnelle Radford:
at the beginning
Amanda:
and character
Darnelle Radford:
and character
Amanda:
relationships.
Darnelle Radford:
relationships.
Amanda:
So
Darnelle Radford:
So
Amanda:
we have
Darnelle Radford:
we have
Amanda:
all of
Darnelle Radford:
all
Amanda:
this
Darnelle Radford:
of
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
this like...
Amanda:
really rich character life for each of these people that are going to be on stage and their relationships are really rich. And we then use that to create scenarios and prompts for them to kind of just like throw them in and like watch what happens. And like
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
that's
Darnelle Radford:
like, that's
Amanda:
how
Darnelle Radford:
how
Amanda:
we like
Darnelle Radford:
we like
Amanda:
start
Darnelle Radford:
start
Amanda:
building
Darnelle Radford:
building
Amanda:
our story
Darnelle Radford:
our story
Amanda:
and our script.
Darnelle Radford:
and our script.
Amanda:
So
Darnelle Radford:
So
Amanda:
I know
Darnelle Radford:
I
Amanda:
it's
Darnelle Radford:
know
Amanda:
not
Darnelle Radford:
it's not
Amanda:
in the show,
Darnelle Radford:
in the show,
Amanda:
but there
Darnelle Radford:
but
Amanda:
was
Darnelle Radford:
there
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
was
Amanda:
whole
Darnelle Radford:
a whole
Amanda:
improv
Darnelle Radford:
improv.
Amanda:
about Dottie, the mother, teaching the girls
Darnelle Radford:
teaching the girls
Amanda:
about
Darnelle Radford:
about
Amanda:
like,
Darnelle Radford:
what happens
Amanda:
what happens
Darnelle Radford:
when you get
Amanda:
when
Darnelle Radford:
period.
Amanda:
you get your period. It's not
Darnelle Radford:
If
Amanda:
in
Darnelle Radford:
not
Amanda:
the piece
Darnelle Radford:
in the piece
Amanda:
anymore,
Darnelle Radford:
anymore,
Amanda:
but it was
Darnelle Radford:
but it
Amanda:
so
Darnelle Radford:
was
Amanda:
important
Darnelle Radford:
so important
Amanda:
for us to
Darnelle Radford:
for
Amanda:
do
Darnelle Radford:
us to
Amanda:
that,
Darnelle Radford:
do that,
Amanda:
for like
Darnelle Radford:
for
Amanda:
to
Darnelle Radford:
to
Amanda:
build
Darnelle Radford:
build
Amanda:
their
Darnelle Radford:
the
Amanda:
backstory
Darnelle Radford:
backstory
Amanda:
and their relationships.
Darnelle Radford:
in the relationships.
Amanda:
And like,
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
there
Darnelle Radford:
there
Amanda:
is like,
Darnelle Radford:
is
Amanda:
some of
Darnelle Radford:
some
Amanda:
the words
Darnelle Radford:
of the words
Amanda:
that they
Darnelle Radford:
that they
Amanda:
used
Darnelle Radford:
used
Amanda:
in that
Darnelle Radford:
in that
Amanda:
improv
Darnelle Radford:
improv
Amanda:
are in
Darnelle Radford:
are
Amanda:
the
Darnelle Radford:
in
Amanda:
show,
Darnelle Radford:
the show,
Amanda:
but that
Darnelle Radford:
but
Amanda:
scene's
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
not
Darnelle Radford:
seems
Amanda:
in the show
Darnelle Radford:
on the
Amanda:
anymore.
Darnelle Radford:
show. So what do you do with those extra pieces?
Amanda:
So
Darnelle Radford:
So
Amanda:
they,
Darnelle Radford:
they, it's interesting
Amanda:
it's interesting
Darnelle Radford:
to
Amanda:
because
Darnelle Radford:
me.
Amanda:
we film a lot of our improvs because we do direct transcription to build the bones of our script. And then we go in and do like group editing on our feet to make sure things work. So sometimes this is fun, Gracie will like, on our Patreon, you can see
Darnelle Radford:
see
Amanda:
like a deleted
Darnelle Radford:
a deleted
Amanda:
scene
Darnelle Radford:
scene
Amanda:
and she'll toss
Darnelle Radford:
and she'll
Amanda:
that
Darnelle Radford:
toss
Amanda:
up and you
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
can
Darnelle Radford:
up
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
and you
Amanda:
see
Darnelle Radford:
can
Amanda:
one
Darnelle Radford:
see
Amanda:
of these
Darnelle Radford:
one
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
of these
Amanda:
scenes that
Darnelle Radford:
scenes
Amanda:
didn't
Darnelle Radford:
that
Amanda:
make
Darnelle Radford:
didn't
Amanda:
it
Darnelle Radford:
make
Amanda:
in
Darnelle Radford:
it
Amanda:
or
Darnelle Radford:
in
Amanda:
that
Darnelle Radford:
or
Amanda:
cup
Darnelle Radford:
that cut
Amanda:
got cut way down
Darnelle Radford:
way down
Amanda:
or like
Darnelle Radford:
or
Amanda:
a movement
Darnelle Radford:
a
Amanda:
piece
Darnelle Radford:
piece
Amanda:
that we
Darnelle Radford:
that we
Amanda:
made
Darnelle Radford:
made
Amanda:
and it like
Darnelle Radford:
and it
Amanda:
didn't
Darnelle Radford:
didn't
Amanda:
work
Darnelle Radford:
work
Amanda:
so we had
Darnelle Radford:
so
Amanda:
to
Darnelle Radford:
we
Amanda:
like
Darnelle Radford:
had to
Amanda:
cut it
Darnelle Radford:
cut
Amanda:
out. That
Darnelle Radford:
it out.
Amanda:
happened
Darnelle Radford:
That
Amanda:
with
Darnelle Radford:
happened
Amanda:
Merry Merry.
Darnelle Radford:
very, very
Amanda:
We made
Darnelle Radford:
quickly.
Amanda:
a whole like diet song about like diet culture and like different diet methods
Darnelle Radford:
and
Amanda:
and like it was just wrong for the piece. It was weird and it was
Darnelle Radford:
it
Amanda:
so like paper
Darnelle Radford:
was
Amanda:
dolls
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
and like it's weirdness but it just didn't fit into the piece anymore.
Darnelle Radford:
wrong
Amanda:
So during the pandemic we filmed it
Darnelle Radford:
for
Amanda:
as like a little music video with everyone and like put it up on our Patreon.
Darnelle Radford:
the
Amanda:
So if
Darnelle Radford:
piece.
Amanda:
you're a patron, you can go see the diet
Darnelle Radford:
It
Amanda:
song.
Darnelle Radford:
was weird and it was so like, amber gall and weirdness, but it just didn't fit into the piece anymore. So during the pandemic, we filmed it as like a little music video with everyone and like put it up on our Facebook page. And we found no stupid diet songs. That's really cool. I think that that's sort of a great way to... to support the development of the work by not letting it go, but you're using it all. They call it byproducts,
Amanda:
Yeah,
Darnelle Radford:
the byproducts
Amanda:
I love
Darnelle Radford:
of,
Amanda:
that.
Darnelle Radford:
yeah.
Amanda:
It's like, literally, now they say you don't want to see the sausage made. It's like, no, this is the sausage. This is how we make
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
it. This is it.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah, that's kind of like early on when I started podcasting, I, you know, it took me a while to get a cadence took me a while for my team to get a cadence to for themselves. And, and often we would find that once we once we ended the interview, that's when we got a really juicy 10 minutes that I wish we had still recorded. So there are many times that, you know, when I was in person, When I would when I was live I would I would do a sign-off, but I wouldn't you know turn off the recorder
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
and then we would keep talking and we just keep that for ourselves and I always think that that's great because it's sort of like now that we've gone through that we're sort of unpacking
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
and And just processing
Amanda:
Yeah,
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah
Amanda:
that's cool. Yeah, that's like, yeah, we generate so much material and sometimes it is hard to pick and choose, but we've gotten very good at killing our darlings because we all recognize that like, if we were to put everything in, it would be like three hours and it would be like a fever dream and there would be no
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
story because it would just be all over the place.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah, so you did mention that you try to keep them just a just a tight hour or somewhere around an hour five
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
Um, do you ever think we have so much more content? Why not 90 minutes?
Amanda:
You know what? I think because we're taking the best of our content, like we are taking
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
the top tier content and putting that into the script, and we don't wanna add stuff just to make the piece longer. There has been talk about, in the past, this was like a very short conversation like two years ago about how like one day we could make like
Darnelle Radford:
make
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
sequel
Darnelle Radford:
a sequel
Amanda:
to
Darnelle Radford:
to
Amanda:
Mary
Darnelle Radford:
Merry
Amanda:
Quite Contrary.
Darnelle Radford:
by Paternary,
Amanda:
Like we could
Darnelle Radford:
but you
Amanda:
make
Darnelle Radford:
could make
Amanda:
something
Darnelle Radford:
something
Amanda:
else
Darnelle Radford:
else that you
Amanda:
that's
Darnelle Radford:
need,
Amanda:
either.
Darnelle Radford:
that's either
Amanda:
like a prequel
Darnelle Radford:
like a prequel.
Amanda:
or something that happens after. But our outlook is, you know, we don't wanna just make something 90 minutes because we wanna have something that's 90 minutes. We wanna have a really solid piece that's good storytelling, that's interesting, that makes you think. And if it's only gonna be an hour, that's fine.
Darnelle Radford:
That's great. And you never know, this piece itself might, could inspire a full length feature film, could
Amanda:
Yeah, it could.
Darnelle Radford:
inspire a TV series
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
or anything like that. I always look at it. I always look at it like that. I'm just like, you know, just because I think it's done here, even though I have other things I can do and I'm sitting, I'm sitting like observing it saying like, Oh, I could do that. I could do that at these things. They just become more inspiration for future work
Amanda:
Yeah, well that's
Darnelle Radford:
or for other ways to imagine.
Amanda:
our virtual piece, Wasp's Nest, definitely has like that potential. We have a lot of weird witchy improvs from doing all that virtual work with people. And you know, there is like a world, because the piece was episodic in itself, there is like a world where we could be like, oh, let's go, let's do like another episode. I don't know if we have the capacity to do any of that right now, but we definitely have the material tucked away if we ever are interested in revisiting those things.
Darnelle Radford:
Great. I mean, it's good to have a body of work like research and resources to go back to you. Your well is never dry,
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
which is great because you can always end. I also think it's great to have a well that is full or filled and let other ideas. inspire you as well because you know you have a sense of security in knowing that you have this collection that you can go to and
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
realize further when you're ready. It kind of gives you the confidence to see something in real time and say, you know what, I know we were talking about this, but this has urgency right now.
Amanda:
Yeah
Darnelle Radford:
And let's explore this right now and we'll get back to the rest.
Amanda:
Yeah, exactly. And that's like exactly what happened with this piece.
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah. Well, that's great. I was going to ask you what motivates Paper Doll Ensemble. I think you might have met. I think you I think you
Amanda:
You think
Darnelle Radford:
touched
Amanda:
I cover
Darnelle Radford:
on
Amanda:
that?
Darnelle Radford:
it. But
Amanda:
I think I cover that one too.
Darnelle Radford:
yes, absolutely. So, OK, so we teased some of the ways that people can be involved in Paper Doll Ensemble, but I'm going to have you tell us.
Amanda:
All right.
Darnelle Radford:
So how can our listeners support Paper Doll Ensemble?
Amanda:
So the biggest way to support is to come see the show, of course. Like come see the show. It's going to be weird and make you think. And the characters are so beautifully developed and everyone is such an amazing performer in the cast that like it's a good show. The next way is to become a patreon. We have a patreon you there's a bunch of different levels. I think our lowest level is like $3 you get access to with that you get access to all of those like. behind the scenes things that we periodically post, plus a peek behind the curtain. I know, I think last year we all did a weird survey about us as people and our theater careers. And I know one of the questions on there was, what is the worst show you've ever seen? And I think mine got cut because I was not kind to the show.
Darnelle Radford:
Oh
Amanda:
I won't say it, but I saw a show in a fringe and it just, and I couldn't get out because I would have then become part of the show. And so I just had to sit there for 90 minutes and it was not good.
Darnelle Radford:
How dare you
Amanda:
And I was like,
Darnelle Radford:
trap
Amanda:
yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
me in here?
Amanda:
And I've always thought, and this is my theater professor, is that life is too short for bad theater. But yeah, so there's lots of things
Darnelle Radford:
I want
Amanda:
to see.
Darnelle Radford:
that on a t-shirt and I'm going to print that up and put
Amanda:
Do
Darnelle Radford:
it
Amanda:
it,
Darnelle Radford:
on the wall.
Amanda:
do it.
Darnelle Radford:
Life's too short for bad theater.
Amanda:
It's too short. So the Patreon is great. Like I said, I think our lowest level is like $3. You get all that behind the scenes. If you, the different tiers have different rewards. I know when, as you like go up, you get like reserved seats at our shows. You get like, there's lots of good perks there. I don't know them all off the top of my head. I just know they're good. And then let's see, what else? There's a, you can always follow us on Instagram. We're always posting, even when we're not in production. Gracie will tease little videos of some of our movement pieces and make like, there's some pretty funny things she's made from our weird movement pieces. And is that it? Is that it? Yeah. And we also have a newsletter. If you go to our website, which is paperdollensemble.com, you can sign up for a newsletter. And we only really send out. every couple of months and then when we're producing, like every, you get a lot more. But that's a great way to support us.
Darnelle Radford:
Nice. I love the Patreon categories. They're dew drops, sprinkles,
Amanda:
Yes, yes,
Darnelle Radford:
sugar cubes,
Amanda:
yes.
Darnelle Radford:
peeps, and golden scrunchies.
Amanda:
Peeps are very important to us. Our first show, we actually just did a fundraiser for the Fringe called the Peep Show, which
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
is all marshmallow Peeps, marshmallow Peep themed. We had a marshmallow Peep themed cocktail. We had a Peep tasting table, a Peep decorating contest. But our first show, this is how girls die, they eat a lunch consistent
Darnelle Radford:
system
Amanda:
of like
Darnelle Radford:
of like
Amanda:
all
Darnelle Radford:
this
Amanda:
this like
Darnelle Radford:
like
Amanda:
teal colored
Darnelle Radford:
teal
Amanda:
Gatorade
Darnelle Radford:
colored catorade
Amanda:
that they call tea and
Darnelle Radford:
that they call teak and a teak lasagna which
Amanda:
a
Darnelle Radford:
is
Amanda:
peep
Darnelle Radford:
just like yellow
Amanda:
lasagna,
Darnelle Radford:
and pink and
Amanda:
which was
Darnelle Radford:
melted
Amanda:
just
Darnelle Radford:
in layers in a lasagna
Amanda:
like yellow and pink
Darnelle Radford:
pan.
Amanda:
peeps melted in layers in a lasagna pan that they like,
Darnelle Radford:
Oh
Amanda:
yeah,
Darnelle Radford:
my
Amanda:
yeah. So
Darnelle Radford:
god.
Amanda:
that's the peeps are very important. And of course the golden scrunchie, like, come
Darnelle Radford:
Yeah.
Amanda:
on.
Darnelle Radford:
Okay. So since peeps are so important
Amanda:
Mm-hmm.
Darnelle Radford:
and there is a love hate with peeps, I love peeps, but there's a way to consume peeps and everybody has a different one.
Amanda:
Oh, okay.
Darnelle Radford:
And
Amanda:
That's true, yes.
Darnelle Radford:
so what do you prefer? Do you prefer peeps fresh out of the pack or peeps that have been exposed to the air and get a little bit stale?
Amanda:
I like stale. I like them a little crunchy.
Darnelle Radford:
Yes.
Amanda:
I don't know why, I just,
Darnelle Radford:
It's
Amanda:
they're,
Darnelle Radford:
a texture thing.
Amanda:
it is,
Darnelle Radford:
It's a
Amanda:
it
Darnelle Radford:
texture.
Amanda:
is. And my husband would disagree. He likes them fresh. If there's any amount of time that they've been out of the package and not consumed, then they're just, they're not good anymore. I'm like, give those ones to me. I'll eat those.
Darnelle Radford:
I know they're getting out of hand with all of these flavors.
Amanda:
Oh my God. Well, that's why we had the peep tasting area. We had, we
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
also had peepsy, which was, got really hard to find at one point, but we had peepsy,
Darnelle Radford:
We had deep sea,
Amanda:
we had tropical
Darnelle Radford:
we had tropical
Amanda:
fruit flavor.
Darnelle Radford:
fruit saver.
Amanda:
We had cotton candy birthday cake and Dr. Pepper,
Darnelle Radford:
Ha ha ha!
Amanda:
which is crazy.
Darnelle Radford:
All right, so now we know everything we need to know about the pecking order and how to get tickets. We're going to go to Philly Fringe dot org and get those tickets. And if there's also a pay what you can option as well.
Amanda:
Yeah, they're pay what you decide. So they
Darnelle Radford:
Okay.
Amanda:
start at $5 and go all the way up to $20. So yeah,
Darnelle Radford:
I started
Amanda:
pay what you decide.
Darnelle Radford:
$10 and it was only up to 20. Cool. So, you know, we decided. Cool. And since you're on the tail end of the fringe, do you have a fringe recommendation?
Amanda:
Okay, so I haven't been able to see any French shows yet because I was in New York all last week. But I'm going to try and see Citrus Andronicus, which I've heard is amazing. Everyone
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
I talked to have seen it, it's like you've gotta go see it. So like, I'm worried I'm not gonna get in, but I'm gonna try. Also our sound designer for The Peking Order is also the sound designer for that show and the ASM. So gotta go support Ava, they're awesome. can't. I'm so excited that we're going to be in tech together very shortly. But that one is like my number one so far. And then I forgot this artist's name. But they have a show called Vile and it is like a clown show. And I follow them on Instagram and they do these amazing like nude drawings, like illustrations. And I like Francesca, her name's Francesca.
Darnelle Radford:
Yes,
Amanda:
And
Darnelle Radford:
I got
Amanda:
I
Darnelle Radford:
the link.
Amanda:
love her art. So like, I'm hoping I can go see Vile because like, I just want to, I haven't seen her perform and I think she's so funny. And I like I said, I love her art. So definitely want to go see that. Uh, and like there was one other and I don't Bummer. I have them
Darnelle Radford:
Well,
Amanda:
all
Darnelle Radford:
two
Amanda:
written
Darnelle Radford:
is
Amanda:
down.
Darnelle Radford:
good.
Amanda:
I have them all written down and like all circled in my little newspaper, which is like not anywhere near me. So,
Darnelle Radford:
Yes.
Amanda:
but yeah, those two are definitely the ones I want to go see.
Darnelle Radford:
cool. So I think two recommendations is good. It definitely gives enough. The reason I ask about the recommendations is because I don't have time for any of it. That doesn't mean I don't have an interest. It means I'm
Amanda:
I just
Darnelle Radford:
just
Amanda:
don't know
Darnelle Radford:
overextended.
Amanda:
what's up.
Darnelle Radford:
I don't know how I've... I see a lot of theater and I don't know how I miss a lot of theater at the same time.
Amanda:
I
Darnelle Radford:
Ahem.
Amanda:
remembered my third one. I want to see she was a conquista whore.
Darnelle Radford:
Mm-hmm.
Amanda:
That's the other one I want to see.
Darnelle Radford:
Great. That I do have, and I also have that one on my list as well.
Amanda:
Yeah, I definitely want to see that. I think I have like one or two more chances. So I got to really get on it and go see that one.
Darnelle Radford:
Cool. All right. Well, Amanda, thank you so much
Amanda:
Of course.
Darnelle Radford:
for talking Paper Doll Ensemble and talking about the pecking order. I always hope that I can make time work for an interview.
Amanda:
Yeah, this
Darnelle Radford:
Paper
Amanda:
was great.
Darnelle Radford:
Doll is always great at reaching out. And sometimes we always have to reschedule because... It's just the nature of how things go. But
Amanda:
Yeah.
Darnelle Radford:
I'm glad we had the time to have this chat. The production is called The Pecking Order. It is on stage September 21st through October 1st.
Amanda:
Yep and the September 22nd is our opening night so if you come that night you get a drink on us and there'll be some snacks and you can hang out with artists
Darnelle Radford:
There you
Amanda:
afterwards.
Darnelle Radford:
go. Yeah. And so all the links will be in the show notes, including the Amanda's Recommendations. And yeah, that'll be it. So Amanda Jensen, thank you so much for talking to us today and telling us about Paper Doll Ensemble and the Pecking Order. It was truly a pleasure. Thank you
Amanda:
Thank
Darnelle Radford:
so
Amanda:
you
Darnelle Radford:
much.
Amanda:
so much, this was
Darnelle Radford:
It
Amanda:
so much
Darnelle Radford:
was
Amanda:
fun.
Darnelle Radford:
so fun.
